For the first interview on my YouTube channel, I couldn't think of a better guest than my dear friend and colleague, Nicole Herway. Nicole is an exceptional therapist whose clinical judgment I trust enormously, and someone I've had the pleasure of collaborating with on some very complex cases.
In this conversation, we explore relational trauma, the psychological impact of high-conflict divorce and family court litigation, and the challenges of co-parenting after a painful relationship. We also discuss how therapists can help clients navigate these difficult experiences while rebuilding their sense of self and moving forward.
A conversation with Nicole Herway, LCSW.
Key Takeaways from Our Conversation
Relational trauma isn't always the result of a single event
While betrayal and other major events can be traumatic, relational trauma can also develop gradually through repeated experiences of invalidation, criticism, coercive control, or feeling insignificant in a relationship. Over time, these experiences can profoundly affect a person's identity and sense of self-worth. Nicole's approach to trauma therapy emphasizes helping clients recover their sense of safety and reconnect with themselves.
The divorce process can compound existing trauma
For people who have experienced relational trauma, adversarial divorce proceedings can reactivate old wounds. Some may look to the family court system for validation or justice that they never received in their marriage. But litigation rarely provides the emotional resolution they're seeking, and ongoing conflict can make recovery even more difficult. In our discussion, Nicole explains how divorce counseling can help individuals process these experiences and move forward.
Being involved in a high-conflict divorce doesn't make someone a high-conflict person
One of the important distinctions we discuss is the difference between being caught in a contentious legal process and becoming emotionally consumed by it. Therapy can help people recognize conflict without feeling compelled to engage in every provocation, allowing them to establish healthier co-parenting boundaries and respond more effectively to difficult interactions.
Effective trauma treatment requires flexibility
Nicole describes how she integrates approaches including EMDR, Internal Family Systems (IFS), and Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT), depending on each client's needs. Treatment may involve regulating an overwhelmed nervous system, processing traumatic memories, or challenging deeply held negative beliefs. We discuss how EMDR therapy for trauma can be especially helpful when painful experiences continue to trigger intense emotional and physiological responses, even while stressful circumstances are ongoing.
Religious trauma can further complicate divorce and co-parenting
Particularly in Utah, divorce sometimes coincides with significant changes in religious beliefs and identity. When faith, marriage, family, and community are deeply intertwined, these transitions can introduce additional layers of grief, shame, and conflict. Nicole discusses the importance of understanding these experiences and how religious trauma therapy can help individuals navigate changes in faith, relationships, and their sense of identity.
Court-involved therapy requires specialized knowledge and ethical care
Divorce and family court involvement create clinical challenges that extend beyond traditional individual therapy. Therapists need to understand the legal context, maintain appropriate professional boundaries, and recognize how their involvement can either help reduce conflict or inadvertently contribute to it. As Nicole emphasizes, working effectively with court-involved families requires specialized training and experience.
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This transcript was automatically generated and may contain errors.
This is the very first interview
I've conducted for my YouTube
channel, and I honestly
can't imagine a better person to start
with than my dear friend
and fellow therapist Nicole Herway.
I met Nicole in April of 2023
at a Utah AFCC convention in St.
George.
I had just moved to Utah from North
Carolina a few months earlier.
I really didn't know many people
here, and I was attending this
conference in a pretty far-flung
corner of an unfamiliar state.
Nicole and her then fiancé,
now husband Matt, just happened
to be sitting next to me.
We started talking and ate lunch
together, and it didn't take long
for me to realize I'd found my people.
Nicole and I became fast
friends after that conference.
We've given presentations
together, we've shared cases,
and we've supported each other
three times, good and bad.
Nicole is one of the therapists I
refer to most often, and I I want
to say something about that because.
Really speaks to the kind
of clinician Nicole is.
Every client I've spoken with
who's worked with Nicole has described
feeling fully supported by her and has
expressed deep appreciation
for the work they've done together.
Nicole and I have had countless
clinical conversations about some
really complicated questions.
When I have an ethical question or
dilemma, she's the one who I call
to talk me through it.
I value her judgment, her
thoughtfulness, her ability to see
complexity in really difficult
situations, and really
just the strength and compassion
she brings to this work.
I can genuinely say that there's no
therapist in Salt Lake
City whose clinical judgment I
trust more than Nicole's.
She's a mom to three beautiful
daughters, and a wife,
an extraordinary clinician, and as if
that weren't enough, she's
currently a doctoral candidate.
In marriage and family therapy, with
a focus on systemic theory, and for
you court-involved folks out there,
whether you're attorneys or
therapists, Nicole is getting her
PhD in real systemic theory, not
the sort of knockoff family systems
therapy that has, for all intents
and purposes, become a rebranding
of reunification therapy in the
family court system.
So today we're going to talk
about some of the issues that
come up in our work with.
Court involved families, including
relational trauma, the psychological
impact of divorce and litigation,
and how we as therapists can help our
clients navigate some extraordinarily
difficult situations.
I'm really excited to share this
conversation with you.
So here's a conversation
with my dear friend Nicole Herway.
All right, Nicole, I would love to
hear just a little bit more about
your your journey into this
profession and how you decided to
become a therapist and what what drew
you to this field.
Yeah, so I actually started
off as a recreation therapist.
That was my undergrad, and I
worked for the VA doing therapy
in the pool, so aquatherapy with vets
with spinal cord injuries.
Wow, yeah, and sounds intense.
It was so funny because what would
happen is my boss would be like,
"You have to get out of the pool.
Like it's time to go."
And I'd be like, "But we're
in the middle of some good stuff."
And like at the end, my my boss was
like, "You really should just be a
therapist because she's like, "You're
a great recreation therapist, but you
could spend hours just chatting with
everyone and talking them through
stuff."
And so she was the one that
sparked my interest in it.
So I became a therapist and then
became trained in EMDR, which.
peaked my interest in, PTSD trauma
and things like that and then I
started having more and more clients
dealing with relationship trauma so
that's how I got into, couples work,
divorce work, trauma work, things
like that.
And did you like when you went into
graduate school did you know the kinds
of clients that you would ultimately
want to be working with or was that
something that evolved over time?
I thought I would work for the VA.
I just loved working with veterans.
That's what I had had.
Experience with.
I also worked in the VA nursing home,
so most of my career up until grad
school had been through the VA.
So I still would love to work
with them, but it's a problem
where you like would want
to work with lots of people.
But yeah, I found found my group with
therapy and divorce and relationships.
Yeah.
And so as you said you've you've
worked with a lot of relational
trauma and when you think about
clients who are going through
divorce What kinds of relational
trauma do you see that have either
contributed to the breakdown of the
marriage or have contributed in some
way to the way their divorce process
seems to be unfolding?
Yeah, so I think the thing
most people think is that there's some
type of large betrayal that has
happened and that does occur.
But the things that I find interesting
that I'll pick up on the more I work
with someone are things like.
Basically, just not feeling
seen or heard or understood or
that they mattered, and so
the relational trauma is just this
question of, do I matter to you?
And if the answer is no or what
they've received back in their
relationship is no, that's kind of a
deeper trauma because it's, it's
trust is one thing, but to feel like
you have no significance is a trauma
on another level.
Like, is there?
Is there some sort of distinction
between, you know, deeply painful
experiences that many of us encounter
in life and in relationships versus
how you think about trauma and how you
address trauma you know when when
you're working with it in in a
clinical kind of way?
Yeah, I think it depends on.
I mean, that's the great
answer to everything, right?
Can you That's that's the eternal in
in both law and therapy is yes it
depends yes it depends sometimes
things are out of the blue so the
trauma is this big event that's
shocking and unfolds so much more and
it's it's violating and and they go
into this trauma response of of shock
or freeze or flight but a lot of
times traumas are compounded So when
I work with clients where it wasn't
the big event, what I see is that
like day after day, week after week,
it could be something like
coercive control or
minimization or belittling.
Essentially the loss of self.
Anything that has to do
with the loss of self in relationship
is completely eroding.
So that's what I'm looking
for when I talk with people is
how much of the original them
do I even have in the session.
If it's really, really small,
that's what we spend a lot of time
finding again and getting their
footing under them because
it's very easy to lose yourself
in the commitment to a relationship.
Yeah, and speaking of compounding, I
think that is something that you know
we see frequently in our work with
high conflict divorce when there's
been relational trauma and then.
A divorce process is initiated,
and then there's this, you know, it
can become a very adversarial process.
How do you see litigation
either reactivating
past trauma or compounding
past trauma from the marriage
that's now playing out
in the divorce process?
Yeah, so I think there's a need
again going back to that original
thing of like, do I matter?
And for a lot of people, if they
didn't get that in the marriage
itself, and especially if they
didn't get that in earlier years or
earlier relationships, and also in
the marriage they're currently
leaving, then they want the justice
system to almost come in in this
paternal maternal figure, and
justify them and show them
you do matter.
What happened to you?
Let's make this
unfair thing fair, right?
Yeah, even well, and even
more than that, right?
Not only fair, but I want
I want justice.
Like this is what he, and I want him
to pay for it, or
this is how it was to be in that.
And so here's what I think I deserve.
It's it's almost like an over-centering
of the self again,
if it becomes highly litigious, right?
And obviously there are
people that are activating that
litigation and other people that are
simply having to respond to it.
But for a lot of people,
that's a very validating,
ironically soothing process.
And it's how they seek
justification for the pain
that they've gone through.
So in therapy, we're like trying to
separate that litigation and soothing
are two separate processes.
And you know, I'm not sure if our
average client who goes into a divorce
process understands when there's
when there are kids involved.
What the court is really going to be
expecting of them in terms of their
ongoing interactions with a co-parent,
particularly when there has been past
relational trauma on some level or
another, and you know invariably there
has been some at least on some level,
and you know then all of a sudden, you
know they have you know attorneys or
custody evaluator or a PCAL or
therapists.
Who are expecting them and
communicating with them the importance
of like being nice to this person that
you've had these really painful things
with and so often I think that's just
something that that our clients are
not at all prepared for when they go
into this process.
Yeah yeah because there's that urge
to be protective this person
hurt me obviously if there's like
Clear lethal threat than that we
would address this differently.
Sure, right.
But if it's a case of like coercive
control, for example,
and they're using the co-parenting
dynamic to continue coercive
control, I'm like, let's do this.
Like when you were in the home and
you had no sense of self and you
had no standing and there was not
much you could do and everything
you did was wrong, why would we
keep acting the same way
divorced?
Right, right.
Not only is it the courts are
expecting you to act into it, but as
your therapist, I'm like, let's do
this and let's do it good, right?
Yeah, right.
L is the correct
grammar there, but like
before before if he would
say, let's flip it, right?
So if she would say, oh, you never do
anything right, how come when the
kids come home they're always dirty
and messy and blah blah blah and you
you can't take care of them right and
before if that used to erode the
partner's sense of self and be like,
well I'm not a good parent she's the
good one I'm not I'm like what Why
are you doing the same thing you used
to do, right?
This is the time to do the opposite.
This is where you say, "Thanks
for sharing your opinion.
I'm gonna take care of them at my
house, and you're welcome to do what
you want at your house, and we'll
take care of our kids together."
You know what I mean?
Like that's where you don't play
into the coercive control, right?
Exactly.
And that's, I mean, this is where
what you're saying about, you
know, a client's sense of self.
Is so important because if we're
allowing our sense of self to be
defined by what our co-parent
thinks about us, or even what
our kids think about us, like
we're really in trouble.
Like, so it's like that importance
of being able to develop
a sense of self that that's independent
of what others think of you
while maybe recognizing
the feedback they're getting, but.
But not letting that define you.
But that's I think really hard
when people have had long-standing,
really complex and sometimes
traumatic interactions.
Yeah, and this I think there's a
struggle to separate, like we said,
that justification, that validation
of here's what happened, and I
don't want to be in that position,
and this idea of like, then take it
back.
Then right, let's do that, right?
Like if you feel like you're always
Clawing for validation or equality
in the co-parenting relationship,
you're still positioning yourself
in the same place you did before.
But then sometimes we
also see the opposite.
It's like somebody has allowed
themselves to be defined by somebody
else for so long, and now they're you
know the other side and they're
you know dissolving the marriage.
Now they're like, "I haven't
been the asshole all along.
You're the asshole."
Oh yeah, that's true.
I want to scream at
From their rooftops.
That's true.
And and and they're really confused
about why this is not going over
well when this is their truth,
this is their inner truth finally
coming out and it's been
suppressed for so long for so long
they've internalized these
negative messages.
How do we help them?
Yeah.
Understand that they can
advocate for themselves.
But there's there there need
to be some limits around that.
There particularly you know like
we like it's not to say
that's not valid and true.
Also, we have to have some boundaries
around some stuff and make sure
the kids aren't like there's some
things you talk about with your best
friend and not your kids, right?
Yeah.
So this is where I think anchoring
in what the actual self is.
So there's a type of therapy I use
called internal family systems
that I absolutely love for this
because yeah, I'll have
clients that overcorrect, right?
So they were very passive.
In the marital relationship, they
divorce and now we've got like
a fiery beast with its claws
out, just ready to fight anyone
and everyone in its path.
And I'm like, that's still
not the sense of self, right?
So like, I'll use a lot of humor.
Like if someone tells me like,
you know, I I called my ex-wife and I
chewed her out, I'm like, how
come you haven't chewed me out?
Like, if you're a chew-out kind
of person and that's how you
like, like Why don't why don't
we just do therapy while you
chew and he's like well I only
chew her out I'm like we still
don't have you
yeah that's that's how I'm knowing
like if you are acting in any way
whether that's overly passive or
overly aggressive anything that's
out of that assertive zone then we
still don't have you so you're still
not acting from yourself and I like
to use the analogy of the universe
like you're still making your ex The
sun in your universe, because every
behavior of yours is based on what
they're doing, and that's the wrong
design, right?
Like, yes, they are in your life.
Yes, they do matter.
Yes, their opinions matter.
But like, we need you to just
act like yourself.
So if you wouldn't chew out every
single person you ever meet, then
we're not also gonna chew her out.
We're just gonna have a conversation
and say bye and be done.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And So as you know, like the whole
system around family court,
from the professionals
to sometimes the court officials to
therap, really like to label
these people in situations
as as just being high conflict.
And sometimes obviously we do see a lot
of conflict and polarization.
How much Like what we are
calling high conflict,
how much do you think actual past
trauma is contributing to that?
And what can we as therapists
do to sort of bring something
healing to that dynamic, as opposed
to becoming part of that
conflict and polarization?
Yeah, I think like I want to use a
case example to illustrate this
because I think the clients that I
See that do this type of behavior
have had a lot of success with it,
where they have
yeah a high conflict situation, so
they're getting lots of hearings
scheduled, motions to enforce, or
I don't know lots of evaluations.
Like there's just a lot
of legal stuff going on.
Right.
They don't want to participate,
but because of the nature of law
having two sides, they are
required to do their part.
but there's such a big difference
between someone who comes to session
and is like 90% you won't believe
what happened and it's just a lot I
mean their nervous system is just
right right and someone who's in the
exact same situation who's like oh
yeah this happened and this happened
but you know my attorney's got it or
I'll do this and anyways and then
they start talking about other things
so they are in a high conflict
situation but you can tell like if
the nervous system is Also activated
and also high conflict.
Chances are that systemic pattern is
happening, but if you can help them
like notice the high conflict but not
participate in it, they do their
part, but they're not really
thinking about it much.
Doesn't take much from them.
It's kind of like, yeah,
this is probably going
to go on for a year or two.
Yeah, this is going
to cost a lot of money.
It stinks.
I don't like it, but also
it is kind of what it is.
And then we talk about the other
concerns they have, like.
There's a big difference in how
their nervous systems present.
I I mean, kind of one of my favorite
things to say to clients who are
in a very high conflict adversarial
situation is like sometimes
you just need to let the missile
land with a thud, right?
But that's really hard to do
when you're very activated, when your
nervous system is on fire
and all of these incoming missiles
are like triggering deep wounds.
It's it's really hard for these
clients not to get
protective and defensive and it can be
really hard to convince them that
actually you're you're going to get
fewer incoming missiles if you can
just let them land with a thud and
yeah so sometimes go for it yes give
me a story okay I gotta look fine
about this in case I can't tell okay
so there was a story I don't know
where I heard it so I don't know who
to attribute this to but this does
not come from me So I heard the story
that somebody got on a plane and they
were packed for Italy.
Have you heard this story?
And they like had their sundress
and their sandals and they were so
ready for this Italian summer vacation
and it was just beautiful.
And they land and they get off
the plane and it's like
rainy outside and they're like what?
And it turns out the plane was
actually headed to Holland.
And so I mean Holland is beautiful.
There's like tulips, there's
strip waffles, like you know.
Beautiful architecture and lovely
bike rides, nice and flat, no hills.
So Holland is lovely.
So you can either be upset that you
didn't get to go to Italy and you
didn't get outfits and you didn't
get to have fun trips and go see
all the historical stuff, or you
can just say like, "I guess I'm in
Holland.
I'm gonna go buy different clothes.
I'm gonna have to double pay for my
vacation because it wasn't I
didn't book anything in Holland.
But you can either spend the Whole
vacation in Holland, being upset that
you're in Holland, and resent that
you're not in Italy, or you can just
have a lovely time in Holland.
And I love this example because I think
one of the common sensations
that I notice in clients is this
feeling of being robbed, right?
Like they were robbed of the parenting
vision that they had with their kids.
Now I only get them half time.
Now I only get to.
You know, do half
of Christmas with them.
Now I don't get as much vacation time.
Now I miss out on all these bedtime
stories or financially.
You know, all my friends are going
on all these vacations and I'm
spending money to be involved in
the law process for the divorce
and they're obviously very
understandably upset about it and
it's valid.
It's completely valid and the impact
is real and we don't want to
spend the whole time you're
in Holland to focus on right.
Would have been in Italy just yeah.
Be in Holland and have
a good time in Holland.
You won't have as much money.
You won't have as much time in Britain.
But you're still gonna
have a good time.
But you can see Anne Frank's old like
hideout and yeah no I mean this so
oh this is why a lot of what I do
with clients in high conflict
divorce is DBT skills because to me
that's that's right aligned with you
know the skill of participating of
throwing yourself into the moment
that you're in.
You know, not not the moment that
would be more comfortable or more
preferable, but the moment you're
in and responding to that
effectively, rather than trying to
make reality be something other
than it is, because this is the
situation we're in.
So we may as well acknowledge
reality and then figure out
what we're going to do next.
Because being in a battle with
trying to make the past into something
different than what's been.
Root, that's that's that's
definitely a losing battle, right?
You can you can expend a lot
of energy doing that.
Yeah, and it's it's hollow too.
That's what I find is you
the satisfaction it just doesn't come.
And so, yeah, just saying,
I guess this is our life.
I guess this is what's happening.
Here's what I can do here.
It just, yeah, again, it makes room
for some grief while also like
living the life you actually have.
Yeah.
So in addition to these sometimes,
you know, really reactive parents, like
they're in this whole system that
includes attorneys who are frequently
in their ear trying to get them to
disclose like the worst thing that
their co-parent has ever done that
they can use against them to like
litigate and win.
You know, they're very
attached to winning and.
a lot of times we're also like there's
a bunch of other therapists involved
in the case and we see therapists
either get like very and sometimes
overly aligned with a client
who is in like and maybe
the therapist isn't realizing
like what they're not hearing
but then I I've also seen therapists
who have sort of very like
Rigid ideas about
what the outcome like what what what
this child's life should look like
in terms of their relationship with
both parents and sort of not
interested in taking in the
information that might challenge and
I mean I I've heard experienced
therapists call like
survivors of domestic violence like
she's pathogenic she's an extreme
gatekeeper and like So little sort
of compassion and sort of trying
to understand the experience of
the person that you're working
with and
like how how do you as a therapist
try to connect with a client who's
maybe not being as effective as you
would like them to be in this
situation maybe not like really
struggling to use some of the Tools
or techniques that you're trying to
give them, how do you sort of meet
them where they are and try to find
empathy for them and and sort of you
know do good work with these really
challenging clients.
Yeah, I don't know.
I think this was a mentor who trained
me on this and I found it useful and
this is just what I keep in my head
is this 20 80 rule which is 20% of
the session I'm happy to hear about
what was frustrating to you, what
your thoughts are about it, and
things like that.
I don't add to it, I just make
space for it to be said.
But I want 80% of the session
to be so now what, right?
So again, going back to those dbt
skills of I want you, I'm fine if
you tell me logic mind and emotion
mind stuff, but eventually the
bulk of the session, I want us to
be getting into that wise mind,
right?
So these are emotions
and these are the facts and here's
what I'm going to do because.
Well, I want to acknowledge
the past and make space for it
and honor it, especially the impact
that it's had on somebody.
I still want to move to the next
thing, and I'll notice a lot
of clients prefer the flip.
They want 80-20.
Right, right.
80 this other way, and I'll say
to them, "If this is the structure
of the session, you could technically
be in therapy indefinitely.
Right, right.
We will never
make the movement that we need."
And I try to simply be explicit
about it, as long as they know
that they're staying stuck
and that I'm highlighting
where they're staying stuck and that
they're choosing to stay stuck.
Like obviously, as
therapists, we're mostly inviting
and highlighting, right?
Sometimes I feel like a big yellow
highlighter, like just so you know
where we're spending a lot
of this session talking about
someone else's life and not yours.
Yeah.
So yeah, I think for me,
that's a lot of the sort
of psychoed that I do about.
Trauma with patients with clients and
in high conflict of force is sort of
explaining how like trauma keeps us
stuck in the past like we've all seen
the movies with like the or or known
you know
you know veterans who you know duck
and cover every time they hear a
firecracker or a car backfiring and
what's happening is that trigger is
throwing them back into into a past
situation and they've almost sort of
lost the The sense of like when when
am I in the present and when am I
stuck in this past demonic event, you
know, and at the same time the the
the court is in the meantime telling
everyone the opposite.
Like you need to forget that
everything that happened before
you just have to move forward
and make plans for the future.
And like the problem is like a lot
of these clients really don't their
their brains are not able to do that.
They they might maybe they
would really like to do that.
They really
are
experiencing something that's making
it very hard for them to move out
of the past, and sometimes I think
understanding that can help some,
but it's it's it's a real challenge
because there's this tension
because these clients are so
frequently so stuck in the past
relational trauma, whereas to get
out of this high conflict court
situation, we really need to
figure out how to just propose
solutions with you know.
And it's it's really hard because
you're there we are trying
to like you know fill the breach right
yeah well and I think that's where EMDR
becomes very useful because when I
have clients that are very cognitive
they've always used their intellect to
get them through difficult times
obviously that makes a lot of sense
and when they're working with their
attorneys I want their cognitive
abilities very accessible so they can
Organize their documentation so they
can finish the financial declaration,
but when they come to therapy,
sometimes that's the only time where
we're actually building that new
physiological response, right?
And so EMDR is great for
that because it focuses.
I always tell people, this is
the below the neck time, right?
You're responding to
emails when you're in court, you're
probably neck up, but this is
below the neck stuff, right?
So we're working on
how you notice that.
Physiological response.
How can you tell when you're activated?
What skills are we bringing in
to create a new pattern
in the body so that your body doesn't
react the way it used to?
It has a new way of reacting
to current triggers, right?
And I'm I'm glad you brought up EMDR.
Like I have no training in EMDR.
This is an area of therapy that that is
very popular that people ask for that
you have certification in and I I am
I'm curious about how you use
EMDR with court involved cases.
How do you, how like, is
there anything different?
Like when you're trying
to decide whether EMDR
is appropriate for a client,
like how do you make decisions
about you know when to use this
approach and when not to?
And is that at all different
when you're working
with court involved clients?
It's definitely
always The first thing I'm considering
when I'm meeting with someone.
So when we do that initial
intake, the assessment, my brain's
going a thousand miles a minute.
I look like this, but my
brain is not crazy, right?
But one thing I'm sussing out is like,
is their body capable of working?
If the body is completely blocked, I
immediately bring EMDR to the front
of my mind as an option for treatment.
However, sometimes the disconnect
is so high that we have to use
more accessible skills like DBT.
Before I can do EMDR, so if I'm working
with a highly reactive client, court
involved or not, I typically might do
IFS or DBT first, and if they aren't
able to do the skill, then I'll do
EMDR.
If they're so flooded, there's a
form of EMDR called EMD or what
we call EMD little r that allows
me to at least get their nervous
system regulated enough to do
EMDR and then we'll come back to
EMDR.
So interesting.
It's like a big quilt where I'm just
working on different pieces
and every person is different.
So we might spend three sessions
on dbt and then eight sessions on
EMDR and then finish with IFS.
It kind of just depends
on what they need.
But if there is a trauma physiological
response, EMDR is highly recommended
at some point in treatment.
It just depends on when
they're ready to tolerate it.
Right, and then you know frequently
we're dealing with complex trauma
where there's like you know maybe the
relational trauma from the marriage is
over, but there's new ongoing trauma
due to the litigation or what's going
on with the kids relationships you
know maybe with the maybe with
yourself like maybe your kid is now
saying I hate you I never want to see
you again I only want to live like
there can be all kinds of things so
How do you think about trauma
treatment and EMPR in particular, like
when there's still ongoing trauma?
I mean, maybe we all have
ongoing trauma in life.
Maybe that's part of life, but tell me
how you think about that when you're
working with portent-in-voltives.
Yeah, one thing that might help is
to know how we conceptualize
trauma as therapists.
So, yes, there is an actual event.
It might be being served the divorce
papers, finding out about
the infidelity when the child
says they want to go live with
the other parent full time.
Like there are moments
of trauma, but when I conceptualize
trauma, underneath all
of those moments, I'm listening for
what's the common thread.
I'm insignificant.
I'm inadequate.
I'm worthless.
I cannot succeed.
I always fail.
My feelings don't matter.
So, I'm less concerned with the event
and more concerned with
what is the belief that either this
event or many events have compounded.
So that's what I listen for is what is.
The belief that this person has
about themselves that's being
expressed through all of these events.
And because you and I are both
practicing with a lot of clients in
Salt Lake City and in Utah, we are
frequently working with clients who
maybe got married very young and
maybe at a very sort of different
phase of their lives and in their
development and sometimes.
In terms of their religious identity
too, we see a lot of transition
into but also certainly
out of relationship
with the Church of Jesus Christ
of Latter-day Saints.
And frequently when we see people
transitioning out of
you know a you know being a very
like devoutly practicing
Mormon, they're identifying Having
had a history of of religious trauma
and sometimes, you know, view
different views about the church are
really one of the things that maybe
precipitated the dissolution of a
marriage.
How do you see religious
trauma intersecting
with this court involved work
and with relational trauma?
Like how do all these
things fit together?
Oh, it's huge.
I'm so glad you brought that up,
Kenny, because that was one thing
that I have to admit I
underestimated just how much this
would come up, and I was not as
educated on this.
But the more I started seeing it in
practice, I was like, I need to read
more about religious trauma, religious
faith transitions, religious identity,
because for a lot of religions,
marriage is very intertwined with
identity, which is intertwined with
value and worth, and so it's like.
It's all it's like a big rope, right,
where everything is interconnected.
And when you start unraveling
one, you're unraveling another.
And it's not just like family
and identity and community.
It's things like addressing
fear and shame and worth.
A lot of these very core components
about someone's sense of self.
Right.
That's exactly what I was thinking
is this really gets to that
fundamental sense of self.
So somebody is.
You know already dealing with maybe
some of these sense of self changes
coming out of a marriage or heading
into a divorce and then this is also
going on that's that's a lot yeah and
and notice to it that it's an inherent
breeding ground for this concept of
the other right that me and people who
believe like me or act like me and
view things like me this is our story
da da da and it's very easy to other
Someone you're divorcing, it's very
easy to other someone who is a
different religion than you,
especially when they've exited.
And so, when we start to other
some people, it's very hard to
find that collaborative co-parenting
that we're looking for.
And so, this is where we start
to pull on at your core value, like
what are NDBT stuff, right?
Values work, like what are your
actual values, right?
Living according to your values, right?
So like, if love is one of your
values and this highly contentious,
high conflict, religious trauma,
like all of that going on, like
connecting back to those roots of
our beliefs is really important
because more than anything, I want
you acting like yourself.
Yeah, yeah.
If only we can figure out who
who yourself is now.
That's, I mean, that has certainly
been what's, I mean, I've I've worked
with so many co-parents here in Utah.
Who have
had some sort of a faith transition
that ended up deeply impacting their
marriage and now they're they're
trying to co-parent with somebody
who really sees the world very
differently than them and and
frequently they're
like even like if they were you know
highly practicing before like even if
they're realizing those values don't
align with mine that's not how I think
about the world they're Really
struggling to figure out how to fill,
like okay so what are my values?
Like what do I believe in?
And is this some sort of coherent,
like what are the guideposts that
I'm looking to when I'm figuring
out how I want to move forward?
I attended a wonderful meeting of
the Mormon Mental Health Association
which I have joined just because I
believe it's important to
You know, be culturally informed
with everyone I'm working with.
I didn't grow up LDS and really
knew very little about it about
the faith before I moved to Utah.
Now working with it a lot and you know
one of the things I was saying is like
one of the things I've learned is be
you know Mormons are not a monolith.
Like just because somebody a client
comes to session and they tell
me they're LDS, like that
doesn't necessarily tell me very much
about their beliefs or their
priorities or their values.
and then one of the clinicians who
did was raised LDS said, "I think the
one thing all LDS people or people
raised LDS have in common is the idea
that there's a perfect version of
themselves that they're failing in
comparison to."
And I'm wondering,
like as someone who has raised LDS
yourself, do you have this because
I'm wondering, okay, yeah, is that
Perspective of a monolith or do
you think there are there are even
different perspectives around
that?
I I would say different.
I've never met clones, right?
Two people who are exactly the same.
And what I would add too is
to keep in mind, and either
holding this as a therapist or
helping others build this
multi-dimensional perspective, right?
That even when people exit a religion,
whatever religion that is, no two
people leave the same with the same
feeling and the same experience.
So if you look at it really like
beneath all of it we just have two
people that are just different that's
how it's always been and that's how it
always will be and the question is how
much do you want to highlight the
differences how much do you want to
other someone sell how much do you
want to turn this into conflict or
good or bad or right or wrong and how
much do you want to say like let's
just start with where we agree and and
frankly i mean this is broader than
even just Divorce.
I mean, this is, I mean, this comes
up in couples counseling all the
time when we're dealing with two
people who have, you know, they like
perpetual problem, you know,
conflicts where like they just you
know, one of them is clean, the
other is messy, or you know, one of
them likes to make the bed, the
other just doesn't care.
And you know, it's like
either we can get really gridlocked
and have constant conflict,
or we can say, okay, well, like.
What are the values and for like
what what's what's going on
underneath this and oh is there
like do we really have core
commonalities that are greater than
this and it's in couples this is
happening in friendships I mean
certainly social media and our
wider environment is not helping but I
think this is a real struggle just
generally yeah and that's why I love
that you pulled that in because
essentially I always tell people like
we can we can spend our days up in the
turf if you want but I'd rather Go
deep right down to the bottom and at
the core, it's can I let someone be
different from me?
So you're bringing up
issues of differentiation.
I need other people around me to think
and act and choose exactly like me.
I'm externalizing my worth.
That means I'm waiting for other people
to say yes, Nicole, you are correct.
The way you fold the towels is correct.
The way you load
the dishwasher is correct.
You are right about everything.
But if I can allow for differentiation.
There's a lot of ways
to get the dishes clean.
There's a lot of like back
to that earlier example.
There's a lot of ways and approaches
that people have towards cleanliness,
you know, and like yeah, like
people can argue all day about it,
but is that really what you want?
Like are the kids safe?
Are they happy?
Do they have a good time?
I think at its core, that's what
both parents want.
Yeah, and I think like you said,
that shows up in couples, that shows
up in co-parenting, it shows
up in parent-child relationships,
shows up in friendships, like.
Can I let other people be different
from me and just as valuable?
Yeah, I love that.
Okay, I think we are
moving towards wrapping up.
I have a couple other questions.
What do you wish
family law attorneys understood
about
you know, about what we as mental
health professionals can do and maybe
about the role of trauma in
divorce what what do you wish the
sort of the the the legal
professionals who are so often
sort of driving the the pace and
character of this process what do
you wish they knew about what we
do and what we can do and maybe
what we can't do
yeah one of one of the things I
would say is obviously we're not
magicians which they know and
clients know but I think is worth
reiterating and This idea that you
can't do like a 30-day
get-rich-quick scheme in therapy,
it's just not how it works.
And also in remembering the importance
of research and structure, right?
So a lot of people will say, "Well,
I'm going to come in."
I always notice this kind of savior
complex, either that other
professionals want therapists to
have or that therapists themselves
have of like, "Let me work with
dad, let me work with mom, let me
work with kids.
I can."
Come in and work with everyone,
but even family systems therapy
is not structured that way.
It is not, you know, it's
the if research doesn't indicate
on the structure
of the therapy is not that way.
That when you work with the family,
you work with the family, and you
want to work with them all together
all the time, and not do a one-off
session with dad and a one-off
session with mom and a one-off
session with the kids because you're
introducing issues with.
ethics issues with alignment issues
with triangulation like that's not
how family systems therapy is
structured so that's what I wish
more clinicians knew is actually
right really remember to practice
according to the paradigms of
themselves and that ideally
if therapy is needed maybe just mom
needs individual therapy maybe just
the kids need therapy and those
should be at different places, not
all within one hub, and that you
should not be having multiple
providers getting together to talk
about what about this and you try
this da da da, because you start to
remove the power of change away from
the family and towards the
clinicians, and you're introducing
hierarchy and power and subjectivity
that I think creates a lot of
problems.
So, and I.
Couldn't agree more, and I I always
say that I think one of the most
important things people learn from
therapy is appropriate boundaries.
And in order for our clients to learn
that, we have to have them ourselves.
And I really worry about these
cases where the kids are seeing a
therapist and mom and dad and co-
and family say blah blah blah and
these clinicians are all sitting
around talking informally around a
water.
Cooler and where where is the
family learning appropriate
boundaries from this, you know,
plus like okay I will just say I
refer to you all the time because
I think you're a great clinician,
but I don't make any more money
when I refer to you.
Like it's very different than if
I'm referring to another therapist
if I were in a group practice.
There's like a self-dealing
component to that.
So yeah, I think I think
it's problematic on a lot
of different levels, and it
introduces more conflict.
And like I said, the problem with
family systems therapy being
misused and unethically practiced
is it's removing the power of change
from the family themselves.
So that's why, cause I do family
systems work, and when I work with
a family, I only work with the family.
If dad has his own therapist, it needs
to be at a different place.
If the kids are going to therapy,
play therapy somewhere else.
And I don't staff with those
therapists because they
have their own work to do.
If there's something very, very
important and we get a release of
information and it's very
explicit, we're very clear about
what kinds of information we're
sharing and when and why and how.
That's a different thing.
Sure.
Yeah, because even sometimes I'll
hear people who think that family
systems therapy means, you know,
well yeah, all these clinicians
meet individually and there's one
for the family, but then we all
meet together.
And again, I'm like, you're
still removing the power of change
from the family to the people
in positions of authority.
And you have to be really careful
about that because they may be
making decisions that the family
would not have originally made or
are not in align with the family
values or culture or even
feasibility.
And so, even if it's not the water
cooler, even if it's in a
consultation where we all meet
together to talk about this
family, that's not what family
therapy is, nor was it ever
designed to be that way.
Amen.
And so, you know, I had asked you
about like what would
you want attorneys to know?
You pivoted to other therapists,
but that is in fact something that's
on my mind a lot because
you and I both ended up doing a lot
of this court-involved work.
Which not a lot of therapists
do, like it's point zero zero zero.
I don't know what is
the infinitesimally small percentage
of therapists who, you know,
actually put themselves out there
as doing court-involved work.
And I don't know about you if you
heard anything about court-involved
work in graduate school.
The only thing I ever heard
about court-involved work
is stay away from it.
You will absolutely get
a complaint against your licensure.
Like just avoid it, you
know, with a 10 foot.
Whole, and I think a lot of therapists,
you know, are really afraid of that.
They don't want to be involved with it.
They sometimes end up in problematic
situations because you could be doing
couples therapy and the next thing
you know you're getting subpoenaed.
There's actually no surefire way of
avoiding court involved
work if if you're a therapist
but at the same time there are tons of
trauma therapists like you
like there's There's just gazillions.
That is a huge niche, and I'm
wondering, what would you say, if
anything, to other therapists who
specialize in trauma, but who
have never really thought about
applying that work
to court involved cases?
Is that
you know something that that you would
encourage therapists to think about
more openly, or do you think that this
is work that you should only do if?
There's something that's
really made you decide that
you need to do this work.
I think it comes back to ethics.
So I do get concerns when I,
you know, hear from other therapists.
I'm working with people who are
going through divorce, and I I
always wonder in my head, like, how
much training do you have on this?
Because, like, for example, if
someone comes to me and they have ADHD
and that's the presenting issue,
or if the ADHD is interfering
with some of the work that we do.
I refer out, even though I am trained
on ADHD and I have some type of
wherewithal about how to address it.
Like, I do wish more therapists would
recognize that divorce therapy
is its own specialty, right?
Because it's a life transition
and someone thinks like, oh, divorce,
sure, I can work with that.
There are so many things that I'm
paying attention to and filtering
that me 10, 15 years ago would
have not even known to ask.
Right.
Now, after years of training and you
know, hours and hours and hours of
doing this work, I think that's what
I would say to other therapists is
like out of respect for your
clients, if it's not your expertise,
I would out.
If it's something you're interested
getting into, like yeah, come on.
We could use some really ethical,
exactly, well trained clinicians.
But I do hope that across the board
therapists are referring out when.
There are specialty cases that are
beyond their scope of practice.
I've never heard that said better.
So, thank you so much.
And thank you for Nicole
for spending some time with me.
This is really fun.
We should start a podcast or something.
I feel like I could do this
with you all the time.
Always fun chatting.
Hey, thanks Nicole.
Yeah.
Oh, okay.
Let me turn off my recording.
How do I?
Stop recording.
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